In the Season 7 finale episode of "For the Love of Nature," host Katy speaks with Jeff Seevers about the harmful impact of zebra mussels on Texas waters. Zebra mussels are an invasive species that have spread rapidly across North America and can cause significant damage to aquatic ecosystems. Jeff shares his expertise on the topic, explaining why zebra mussels are a threat and what can be done to prevent their spread. Tune in to learn more about the importance of protecting our natural resources from harmful invasive species.
In the Season 7 finale episode of "For the Love of Nature," host Katy speaks with Jeff Seevers about the harmful impact of zebra mussels on Texas waters. Zebra mussels are an invasive species that have spread rapidly across North America and can cause significant damage to aquatic ecosystems. Jeff shares his expertise on the topic, explaining why zebra mussels are a threat and what can be done to prevent their spread. Tune in to learn more about the importance of protecting our natural resources from harmful invasive species.
Hello and welcome to For The Love of Nature, a podcast where we tell you everything you need to know about nature and probably more than you wanted to know. This is the final episode of season seven, which is crazy, and Katie has a really awesome guest speaker that she got to interview all by herself. So I'm just here to introduce the episode and then turn it over to Katie. Enjoy. This is like the second week in a row. Oh my gosh. This is the second week in a row that I've had to do an intro by myself without. Which seems weird, but Laura, I have a guest with me here physically. And Laura, why didn't I invite Laura? Oh, well, she misses out. So today we're gonna be talking about all things Texas. Well, I mean, not all things. We could talk about all things text that would make an amazing episode. But I have with me Jeff Sievers and U R A. What's your position? Well, I guess technically I'm listed as a hydrologic technician. There you go. At an undisclosed government agency, which makes it sound like you work for the cia. It's not the cia, but an undisclosed. You know how government people are, or government agencies are, how you're not allowed to, nobody's allowed to talk except for like that one designated person, and you guys can't, nobody else can say anything at all. Apparent. No. Yeah, you, you can't get clearance to fly through the airwaves like that. So you're not an expert, but you are a professional. And that's, and that's what we're gonna be talking about today in your work with zebra muscles here within Texas because they are a huge deal and I think, I feel like in Texas they're doing a pretty good job with talking to people about it, but I still don't think anybody really knows what they are. So your background, you graduated with your undergrad at from American University in environmental. You were in the Marines before that though. Oh, yes. And like I said before, you work in an undisclosed government agency and you're working towards your masters for conservation biology right now. And, but you're That's fine. You just start both them in there, huh? No, I mean, I could, I just have to make really tiny windows. Okay. So I left up that you're working towards your master's in conservation biology, and then besides zebra muscles, you do all kinds of different stuff. It's a pretty broad spectrum, mostly related to just water research. Okay. Well, I mean hence the high hydrological Yes. Technician part of your, of your title. All right, so let's just run through like a typical day. What is a typical, which I know completely drastically changes day to day. It does. It's quite atypical, I would say. I can be anywhere from knee-deep in a stream or a creek like verifying. It's actually flowing all the way to, you know, on a boat looking for zebra muscles or sitting back in the office under a microscope and counting those little suckers, just zebra muscles. All about zebra muscles quite a bit. Yes, I, we've also done a little bit of cyanobacteria research with, okay. Yeah. Using satellites to kind of build a model to predict like harmful algae blooms. Mm-hmm. And that's, it's pretty cool. Mm-hmm. But still kind of in the works. Yeah. Neat. So, I mean, I'm sure whenever you were a kid you didn't just like dream about zebra muscles. Right. There may have been a dream in in there. Yeah. Did you just as a kid walking around, you'd be the dorkiest kid walking around? I don't work with zebra muscles. I mean, dorky as in like a good way, but Oh, yes. No. If it would've been in a stream in Texas like two decades ago mm-hmm. I probably would've been trying to play with it, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But they, I mean, they weren't, we'll get into that here in a minute, but how did you end up then getting into doing all of this? Uh, you know, kind of lucked into it a little bit. I think you're the first person that's ever been like, I lucked into it whenever we're all like, we're poor and we're still here. But you so, so optimistic, Jeff. Well, you know, I mean, it, it was quite serendipitous I happened to move to an office that I absolutely hated. Mm-hmm. And then in the meantime, Met somebody through work that mm-hmm. Just happened to need someone who knows how to operate and maintain boats. And I've been on boats. So that's how you got it considered, like, or they just, like, who can steer a boat and you're like, I mean, I can or was it a little more involved than that? Uh, a little more involved with that. Okay. The, uh, because like, I can do that. Like I, I'm sure I could fudge my way through that. Have I driven a boat? No. Could I make it up? Totally. Could make it up. But then you gotta put the water to the. And actually make it go forward. I'm sure I could figure it out. I bet you could. But I ended up looking into this by, we actually got into a big discussion on invasive species. Mm-hmm. In Texas, and little did I know this person was knee deep into zebra muscle research. Mm-hmm. And that's no pun intended. Oh yeah. Literally in this. And that's, he was just like, all right, I need you on my team. Hmm. So, so no dreaming about zebra muscles when you grow up, but I mean, did you want to go into environmental something whenever you got over? Because I mean, you took a pit stop in Marine, in, in the Marines. Yeah. That was, no, not to be confused with like the marine of water, but like the military. Well, yes, but that the water aspect was a motivating factor for you for the Marines. Okay. Oh, yes. Yeah. I was like, oh my gosh, they're gonna pay me to go camp and play in the water. Mm-hmm. Uh, where do I sign up for that? Yeah. Well, cool. So let's you ready? Talk just about, I know how much you love zebra muscles. Just a little bit. Yeah, just a little bit. I mean, I'm showing the gauge over here on my fingers for everybody out there and Right. And nobody else can see. I can see it's four inches. Um, that's, that's how much he loves zebra muscles. So what is a zebra muscle for people who don't know what it is? Yeah. So they're kind of an odd, pyramidal shaped. Thing. They have Bissell threads on their belly, which they extend out to when they're younger. They can use that to move in the current. Mm-hmm. And also when they get older, they can use that to attach to substrates. Oh, cool. Okay. And we'll be posting pictures. So earlier Jeff and I went out to Lake to one of their spots at his undisclosed, I have an eyelash in my eye where we went out to one of those spots where, Counts or what do you do whenever you go out to a one of these spots? Yeah, so we've got several monitoring locations around, I guess the regional area. Mm-hmm. And it includes Texas, Oklahoma area. And what we'll do is we go out to these monitoring sites, we'll take a plankton, And we'll collect samples. Wait, pause. A what? A plankton What to net. Okay. Okay. But t o w. Yeah. Continue. Not t e. I was like, I'm just sorry. I got hung up on toe. I was like, how tiny of a net are these plank? Like it was a plankton to net. We gotta catch'em by their toes. Con con, continue. Plankton. Donut. T o w Towing plankton. Move on. Yep. Yep. So we end up, collecting. These concentrated samples mm-hmm. To look at their larval form, which is called a villager. And that's able to give us like density counts for population estimates. Okay. And we also set out what's called a passive sampler. Mm-hmm. And it's basically, Really sturdy, like cardboard that stands water pretty well. Okay. Because I was like, I was like, I don't know if I would want cardboard around water, but ah, trust me, it, I think it's really called Micah board. Oh, oh, okay. Okay. I know what I thought about. Yeah. Yeah. It's bought at Home Depot. I mean, it's super scientific. Yeah. But we calculate the area. Mm-hmm. And square inches. On the square centimeters cuz it's science here. Right? Yeah. So square centimeters, we have the area and then we look at the settlement of adults to a hard substrate in this area. And from that we can actually, I interpolate these population densities throughout lakes and show. Like a population flux over time and over space. Like a spatial distribution. Yeah. Cuz we, we looked at, we were pulling it off a, off of a buoy is what we were looking at. We got hide them. Yeah. Right. No, I can't blame you. So what is the big deal that you guys are looking at a population? Cuz I mean, I mean scientists as a whole, whether it's, you know, for your undisclosed government agency or ones that are similar. You are always doing like census counts and things like that, but why in particular is studying zebra muscles and understanding zebra muscles? Why is that such a big deal? Yeah, so I guess it, it's a twofold for zebra muscles, whereas other invasive species, such as an Asian clam we've had for decades here, but they don't attach to hard substrates. They just go bury themselves in the. And love life. Whereas a zebra muscle attaches to hard substrates, and that can be anything from rocks to your native muscles and clams. Oh hmm. To water intake pipes for public drinking water. Yeah. And that's kind of where the, you know, the concern is at. It's also an ecological concern because they compete for food with everything else. And because they came from Asia, right? You said? Yeah. Like a southeast Asia tech. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how did they get, I mean, I'm assuming just like on boats because they were stuck either boats. Do we have any guesstimate of how they got here? Or, or I guess when maybe, uh, yes. It's kind of narrowed down to somewhere around the eighties. Okay. And it came in on big shipping containers in like ballast water. Okay. Is what they're probably using for the motor transp. And yeah, it came into the Great Lakes and Totally, yeah. Changed that ecosystem up there. So from there, it's actually, you know, kind of moved and spread through boat traffic and not, you know, cleaning and drying your boats out. Where, like, here in Texas they have this very big, campaign, they call it clean, drain, dry. Mm-hmm. And the dry part is public. The most important because like zebra muscles can live out of like in a moist environment, not in water. Yeah. For quite a few days. Oh wow. Hmm. Yeah. Didn't know that. So if you don't get it dry, dry, dry, dry, dry, yeah. You could still be transporting'em. And recently the Texas Parks and Wildlife has actually hinted. Wanting to find out if they can go through like an, like a bird's digestive system and be moved from lake to lake. Poor bird. Yeah. This is so hard. I'm nerd. Poor birds continue. I'm immediately feeling for the bird. Continue. Yeah, no worries. But that's, but I mean, if they're small, I mean, if they're tiny, of course it's, you know, in Yeah. If they're in the Marvel form, yeah. They wouldn't even know they, yeah. Know, but, which I, I guess I never thought about that because the whole push with zebra muscles was so much so around, you know, somebody hangs out in one lake for a day or whatever, it gets stuck and then they go to another lake and it just sort of like bunny hopped from Sure. You know, one thing to another throughout the us But I never really thought about like in an animal moving, you know, and yeah, the. I guess historical thoughts were, it was anthropogenic. Mm-hmm. Like transportation. Yeah. And we were just moving'em around. Yeah. Where. You know, now they're thinking, Hey, we're, getting in lakes that we probably shouldn't be right now. Hmm. Why? Yeah, for example. So what would make it, there's no boats allowed here. Okay. Cuz I was gonna say, what would make it like not, hey, we shouldn't have, this was no boats. Now you know, it, it could have been, somebody coming by and just, you know, scooped up a bucket of water with some minnows. And now they went over to this lake to fish and, just dumped their water out when they were done. Yeah, because especially if it is a alarm form, you're not gonna really, Nope. You wouldn't even know. No, you wouldn't even know. Have no idea. So it's not like you have to look. So the adults how big? I mean they're small, but how big? I mean they're, uh, yeah, they can range from anywhere. It's like just barely visible and. You could almost mistake him for a large grain of sand. Yeah. To, which is ridiculous because Yeah. You would have no freaking idea. Oh no. Yes. That, that's, you'd have no idea that I'm, I am a, like, that's a, like an invasive species smuggler. And you have no, you have no clue because it just stuck to everything and it's so tiny. Oh yeah. And, you know, that's just it. Like they're so elusive when they're that small. I mean, you'll never know. Yeah. And I think the biggest I've ever seen one is somewhere around, I'd say a solid two inches. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. Yeah, they can, because I always thought that they, that they get, they get bigger. The ones that we saw today. Cause we went out to the lake, like I said, on the spot that you guys look at. Mm-hmm. Um, paddle boarding and stuff. And so we went out to look at'em and they were small. That's, I'd say about average. Okay. So those ones, I mean, we'll post pictures too for you guys. If you guys. We'll put'em up on Twitter and Instagram so you guys can see'em. Cause I did take some pictures, so whenever we were out and so that, I mean, they were maybe what quarter? Half inch? Quarter inch. I mean, they were tiny. Yeah. I mean, considering I'd say most of them that were on that kind of, uh, ball there was it was, you know, a centimeter, two centimeters at the most. Yeah, they were tiny. So yeah. Maybe. Less than an inch. And you pointed out too, what was interesting was that there was, there, it wasn't just a clump, so whenever he pulled it up, it was, there's a string from the bottom of the buoy and then there was a weights on the bottom. And then at that form, is that, was that whole ball, was that just them or is there something on there? No, it was, what happens is the, That cordage will like fray. Oh, okay. And they just wrap around each individual strand. Interesting. Okay. And then they'll start growing on each other. So there's probably a lot of dead ones that didn't Oh, okay. Release. And then they just grew on top of that. It just, yeah. Cuz you said they were like, you could tell they were like tiny ones and then bigger ones. Yep. And they just kept piling on. Is that typical, like, do. Always club together like that? Yes, they can get very dense and grow on top of themselves. I, when I was doing work in Kansas, actually mm-hmm. There was like they didn't think that they were living the stream below the dam and I would find them caked on rocks like, Three inches thick. Yeah. But nothing but zebra muscles growing on zebra muscles. Geez. So it's quite interesting how they will just choke out something. Yeah. What's the, what's, what do you think is the reasoning, I mean, to keep piling on like that. Oh, you, is it just, they're like, Hey, these guys have lived long enough. This looks like a good spot. And they just grow there too. Yeah. I guess it's any hard substrate. Perfectly game. And they don't care about their grandparents. You know, they're like, they're, they're now dead. Grandparents just grown so morbid. Just like make way for the new generation. Yeah. Geez. That's how millennials should get rid of boomer. No, I'm totally kidding. Totally kidding. Um, but no. Yeah. That's interesting then, huh? Yep. And it's, that's where the ecological concern comes in, is because, They will attach to hard shell, which you've got your native like clams and muscles, and they'll be, they chosen literally carrying around zebra muscles on top of'em. Huh. And it'll get so bad to the point where they'll smother'em. Yeah. And how can you compete with that? Yeah. So how long, and this is kind of a weird question. I mean, it's me, so it's gonna always be a weird question, but how long does it take for one to like attach to something? Is it. To like really attach to it. Oh, it not long at all. Okay. Yeah. Once they can, I mean, don't think of it as like fingers where they're so Dexter mm-hmm. With their Bissell threads. Mm-hmm. But they can literally, I've, I know that they will attach to like, the insides of pipes that have flowing water moving through'em. Huh. And it's just the tiniest. Like maybe Eddie that Yeah, lets'em circulate back around and they can grab and hook it and then just hold it and maybe seconds is all it takes for them to Oh, okay. Kind of like get that hold and then they just contract'em and start really working their, this is my home now. Like, as soon as they get a spot, they're like, I am here. Like, do they move? Like, I mean, is that true? Like once they find a spot, Unless they have to move, do they just kind of chill there? As long as they have what they need? They kind of have, like, they'll spend about a month Okay. In like their larval phase. Okay. And they're totally planktonic. They can move around through the water column and whatnot to where they're looking for their food sources as well when they're in the larval form. But as soon as they start to go, what we would call un bono mm-hmm. Where they go from kind of, Think of a an uppercase d Okay. They look like that when they're a larval form. Okay. And then when they go on bono, they'll start getting they'll extend that bottom part of the D out to another bend. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. And that's where they start getting more of a pyramidal type shape. Yeah. And once they start going that direct, They're gonna start settling out, but they can still kind of like settle down and go, man, I don't like this spot. And move and then pick up and move. Yeah. And kind of drift a little bit. But they will get bigger to the point where they just fall out of the water column. Hmm. So do you guys, I mean, cuz obviously you can't, can't track'em because they're so tiny. Wouldn't be cool. Yeah, right. Just put a little, A little, the teeny tiniest GPS tracker cuz it. Hardly ever move because we have like, you know, great white sharks that they track would be cool. And I'd just be like, beep, beep, beep, beep. Like the tiniest movement ever. It'd be kind of cute. I would name, I would have to name it then at that point if it was, oh, of course. Tiny little tracker on, but, so let's say like, okay, so then you do, what did you say, Texas, Oklahoma area for the most part. Yep, for the most part. So like, do you see. Certain areas that are worse than others. And what are the contributing factors for how bad is it? Because is it like the higher the human population or Good question. I can say for certain that we don't have a rhyme or reason. Okay. Right now, or they don't have a rhyme reason. Yeah, indeed. They, they kind of pick and choose where they want to be. Some lakes around here, you'd be like, oh my gosh, like how? This not infested and it just, it's not. Hmm. And then you'll have, you know, upstream lakes that do have Yeah. And then downstream lakes that don't, what the heck? Okay. Yeah, exactly. So it's, I've got some hypothesis going, what's going on? But nothing, you know, concrete. But yeah, so like in the Texas, Oklahoma region, they were first introduc. Probably through some sailboat that came from the Great Lakes area to Lake Texoma. Okay. And that was about maybe a little bit more than a decade ago. So, I mean, so fairly recently, I mean, fairly considering, yeah. A decade ago. That's not very long at all. Not really. And considering that, you know, back in, I think it was the eighties for the Great Lakes. So that's, well considering they're like everywhere in Texas now, like. It's tough. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, a decade and they're just like, have taken over. That's insane. Yep. Lakes, I mean, it seems like every year Texas Parks and Wildlife puts out a list of lakes that are like suspect or infested, suspect lakes. Yeah. Can do, can just makes it simple. I can elaborate on that one. But yeah, so they put out a list and that's, publicly available. You can go out there and search it. I don't know the website off the top of my head or I would drop that, but Yeah. You know, it just seems like every year the more, the most recent one, I guess in the Dallas Fort Worth area has been Grapevine Lake. Mm-hmm. And it was very interesting how it didn't take long at all for this lake to fall. Hmm. So, yeah, it's, and it actually hold out as long as it did. Yeah. Because you had texoma and then Ray Roberts. Yeah. That, you know, went pretty quickly with each other and then like grapevine being right in the middle of, of everything. Yeah. Everything. And it's such a popular lake for voting. It is. Yeah. That you would've figured, boy, that's just the next one. But no, it held out for years. And for those of you that don't know, and Texas here, I mean, you know, we're not. Everybody thinks that Texas is like tumbleweeds blowing. Like it's not that bad, but it's still all of our, like, all of our lakes. But what Cato Lake is are for the most part, manmade. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, because we have to, have water here to drink and everything. And so, the lakes that we have are very strategically placed. I mean, that's a whole other conversation, but they are very strategically placed. But they're also like high use. I mean, people here. The lakes. Oh yes. Like going out and using the lakes portrait because it's too hot in the summer to not be, no, yeah. Not be on the water. Yeah. When it's 120 degrees outside and we're all dying. Some, we just need some water. Interesting. Let me think of what else I have about, I know I have tons of questions. No, sure. So I guess as far as like lake recreation goes, mm-hmm. There is definitely. Two different opinions about zebra muscles. Mm-hmm. And the more work I do, the more I see a dividing line and it comes into play with like among scientists or among like, just Nope, just Okay. Among the public. Okay. And you've got the the scientist and, you know, kind of the nature conservationist types mm-hmm. That are like, oh, the ecosystem, you know? Oh, the natural habitat. And then you've, You know, your recreation side of it that sees what the zebra muscles do as far as, well, the lake got a lot clearer what's happening. Mm-hmm. Or, well, okay. So there's that, and then there's also, like the fisheries and, like the bass fishermen and stuff like that. Also like the clearer water because they can see into it farther and yeah, it's easier to do fishing, which is weird. These zebra muscles compete for the base of the food chain. Hmm. And that trickles up to affecting your shad populations, which is a forage fish. Yeah. Which then goes to your, primaries, which are like your large mouth baths. Mm-hmm. And. They don't see it as such a direct, like causal effect. Yeah. So they think the water's gonna be clear because, you know, three or four steps away from what they're concerned about just fishing. Yeah. Then when the water gets clear, then the vegetation's able to grow better, which provides better habitat for the large mouth bath. Mm-hmm. Which then makes their population boom. But once they get to the point where, Food chains starting to, collapse below'em and that's gonna neck their numbers down. Yep. Because I think too, I mean, and that's everywhere you go, what the misconception is that clear water means clean water. Yes. Or clean means cl you know, healthy. No, that's not so opposite then. Yeah. Not the point at all. So interesting. Yep. And on the recreation side of that, like you're saying, you know, it's, you've got your water gets clear, it gets cleaner. People don't see the pea. Water. It doesn't look like soup anymore. So they're like, oh, let's go to this lake because it's, it's a better lake to go recreate in. Yeah. So that brings money in. Yeah, and I have literally been at a boat ramp and a guy told me that he ought to shoot me. We're trying to do any kind of conservation work. You're just out there counting zebra muscles, minding your own business. Exactly. And just run into this guy who's like, I need to shoot you. And you're like, what's Texas? So how know it is, it is TV fair. It is Texas. But still out of all people like, you know, pro environment biologist, that's just like out there just doing your job. Yep. Here. Grandpa Texan over there all mad, but he does not. He was like, no, I don't want y'all to take'em out cuz it makes my water clear. And I've been getting more people in renting out my cabins. Oh. I was like, ugh. Well sorry. We don't actually do that. We're just here to like count'em. Basically, we're just. We're just here to count'em. I need to get you a shirt. And that, that way it's just like a big clump of zero muscles that won't look like anything other than like a clump of whatever. And just say, I'm just here to count'em. Just here to count'em. That's all I'm here to do. Just don't talk to me. Don't shoot me. I'm just here to count. Yep. So it's, you know, there, there's definitely two different sides of the, yeah. The fence on this one. People are very divided on it. And I think like, like you mentioned, because of the clear water that everybody, you know, thinks clear equals clean. That I think that's why there's such a divide in text. I mean, there's all any environmental issue, there's gonna be a divide. Right. You know? But I think this one is so apparent that people do not, like, some people just do not care because they're like, oh yeah, the water's clear, it's clean, it's better. No, it's, it's really not. No. Yeah. And that's, it's literally, a food chain mm-hmm. You know, scenario. And I mean, all those little phyto plankton in there that are making your water a little green is actually great nutrients for, a little bit bigger up the food chain. And, then you get into your rotifer and stuff like that and, along come your filter feeder shad Yeah. Things of that nature and Yeah. But if zebra muscles, like they, they can, I mean, No expert professional. Yeah. But no expert here. Yeah. But you know, I've been told, I didn't actually count the gallon of water, but one zebra muscle, an adult zebra muscle can filter a gallon of water a day. Oh wow. So, and for how tiny that is, that's a lot. If you have millions of them. Yeah. Every day. Yeah. This becomes kind of like, wow. And I've also, you know, read, I consider'em credible sources. That Seabra muscles will selectively feed. Certain, like phytoplankton. Mm-hmm. And not on your, like your cino bacterias that have that. Yeah. Like poisonous toxins. Yeah. I was gonna say the ones that we would love for them to eat. Yeah. They're like, no, thank you. If they could even do that ecosystem service. Yeah. And it's like, well you're, you know, you might be invasive, but you're useful a little bit. Yeah. No, they're not useful at all right now at this point. I mean, I mean, they're invasive. Like, do, is there any benefit besides the clear water, which is again, not clean? Is there any benefit for them to be here? I mean, they're invasive for a reason, but still, I've heard anecdotal evidence that you can eat'em, but that'd be such a waste of time. They're so tiny. Yeah, that'd be such, I don't wanna work that hard for my food like that. That would be too much work. That's why every I, that's why, um, like I've known people. I don't, because I laugh at them, but I know people that eat blue GAILs and I'm like, that is. To me that is a waste of time cuz there's too little fish meat on too many. But anyway, that's a whole other topic. The, the fish that I get mad about the people eat. Um, but anyway, cuz it, I don't wanna work for my food. That's it. When I get hungry, I'm hungry. Interesting. So do you know, like out of all the lakes in Texas right now, do you know like a guesstimate percentage of how many that we know have zebra muscles in them? Ooh, good question. I mean, I would totally be guessing here, like I'd love to do a count. Mm-hmm. On, because it's one of those things where, you know you've gotta have like kind of the right conditions Yeah. And things for'em. They don't the population we have down here mm-hmm. Is a little bit more of a warmer water. Yeah. Tolerant, which is great for Texas. You kind of get towards your more northern, more western stuff and you don't see as many. So they're the, but they're the same species though. Like have they? Oh, absolutely. Have we looked at that genetically? Like are we, like we're definitely, they're the same. We, yes. Because it is a significant temperature difference from one to the other. Yeah. We do what's called E D N A, the environmental mm-hmm. DNAs tracking. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's been thrown out there that they may be in the middle. Like kind of a transition of some sort. Yeah. Making like, a different species. It's significantly warmer water down here than up north. Yeah. You could especially, you could maybe say, I mean maybe say subspecies. Yeah. But yes, they're compared to what's the Great Lakes are. Mm-hmm. And those types, these down here are definitely way more like heat tolerant. Yeah. Which does not bode well for Texas. Yeah. Right. It doesn't matter if the water's moving, you said. Right. Uh, and that, that runs into one of my hypothesis on this. Okay. Is I think while they're in a larval form mm-hmm. That they can get wiped out by UV rays fairly easy. So if you're looking at maybe a shallow, shallow, clear stream Yeah. Then the UV rays are gonna penetrate and just wipe'em out, just like you know. Anything else, anything else? But I do know that you've got like your lakes around DFW area that are positive and then you go way further south down to Lake Livingston that's on the same, Trinity River system. Mm-hmm. And we haven't found'em down that way. Interesting. Do not survive that far. All right. So we know that they're around, but then you still said that there's still random areas that haven't been hit. Mm-hmm. How do you know, like, do you guys go out and just do random surveys of these lakes to be like to see whenever they do hit at Lake? Like how do you know when they've moved? Uh, if, if only, so that, Yeah, again, the teeny, tiniest G PS tracker should be really convenient right now. Well, if Santa Claus would start answering some of my wishlist here, yeah. It would definitely be for us to have more funding to go to these non-detect lakes. Mm-hmm. And like just start, looking at the environmental DNA. Uh, trying to see, to see if there's something else going on. When, when do they show up? Yeah. When will they show up? Yeah. And I know there are other, like, state agencies mm-hmm. That also, you know, track zebra muscle populations as well. So it's more though a matter of when, not if we think for the most part, uh, yes. Okay. It's, it seems inevitable. Yeah. We don't know why some lakes are able to hold off as long as they do. But yeah. To, to this day, there's some that should have no reason why they're not infested. Yeah. And you know, there are some lakes that it's like, how are you like holding on? You know, it's like we, we thought this was a backwater little lake. Mm-hmm. And it's like, dude this thing has even muscle. I've seen ponds and stuff where you could only really. A kayak. Yeah. And zebra muscles. Oh, wow. So it's, which goes back to the, like, the possibility of like birds or something else moving them that they would get into these tiny little areas. Could, yeah. It's plausible. Yeah. Nobody's funding at it, any research to actually, you know, get the smoking gun on that. Mm-hmm. But man, that'd be a pretty cool research. No, it would be. Yeah. That would be okay. So then going back to then, how do you guys know whenever, is it just, you said there are multiple different agencies that are looking at this as well? Yeah. So what, so do they, is there like a zebra alert hotline that you guys just like Absolutely. Somebody sees one and you guys are like, oh my God. Alert the masses. Yeah. No, I mean, if somebody does find what they think is a zebra muscle, absolutely. Take a picture and then put it on iNaturalist. I mean, I would freaking never, I'd be like, what the heck is, I mean, I would just assume it's, it belongs there because it just looks like it belongs, you know what I mean? Like it just looks like it belongs. Oh yeah. So I wouldn't know. I'd be like, no. You know, it's, it's one of those ones where it will not look like any other kind of muscle. Yeah. That you've ever seen before. Yeah. It's just such a unique shape. It is, yeah. It is a little bit of a different shape. Yep. But I still don't know if I would be like, I would just assume that I didn't know about it. Not that it was in the face and be like, oh, a species I didn't know about. Cute, cute little fella here. Yeah. So do you guys pretty much rely then on either. Citizen reporting or other, these other agencies just coming across it. So, what we rely on mm-hmm. Is our own like field data. Okay. And then we pass that onto others which mainly is Texas Parks and Wildlife. Yeah. So we're kind of like a very glor. You know, citizen science, maybe with it not being, which is so funny cuz if we, if only we could say where you were did you just called it a glorified citizen science? Like I get what you're saying though, but it is a funny comparison cuz you guys do, I mean the boots on the ground science compared to both organizations, I mean, we are definitely hired Yeah. To, you know, be out there doing this. We're definitely, we're definitely degree holding professionals here for real, but, What we do is like taking it a few steps further. Mm-hmm. Whereas like the citizen scientist would, take a picture and send this to their local game warden mm-hmm. And say, Hey I think this is a zebra muscle. What do you think? Whereas we're trained we know what we're looking for. Yeah. And we also have the funding to do like your Edna mm-hmm. Research to where it's like we got a positive. You know, came back from the lab. Yeah. We have a positive hit here. And then that's when that would trigger us to do a little more in-depth research Yeah. Into this water body. Maybe put out passive samplers or come out and do to nets. Not with our toes. Yeah. Yeah. And dow once again, to nets, you know, try to look for a reproducing population at that point. And then other agencies like. Agencies such as T P W D would come out there. Yeah. And like literally flip rocks, look at hard substrate. Yeah. And try to find that. But that's literally the smoking gun for these suckers are, is it attached to something hard? Yeah. All your other like muscles are gonna be in the mud. Mm-hmm. So that's literally their one, defining characteristic. So it's attached to your boat. Right. There's cause for. Absolutely. Okay. So it's safe to say if you're, like, if you see one at di, if you see any sort of muscle looking thing attached to your boat, you're like, this is not good. Yep. Okay. So then, okay, so let's go back then to the, what is it? Texas Park and Wildlife say? The dry, what is it? Clean, drain, and dry. Okay. Walk us through what that is supposed to look like, because it's not like you're just hauling your boat outta water and right there just washing everyth. You know what I mean? They want, you wanna keep it contained in that lake, right? Yeah. And that would be, that exact scenario. Mm-hmm. Would be what New Mexico does. Okay. They have a system where you, when you pull your boat out of the water, they've got cleaning stations. Yeah. Right there. There theres and stuff. And then they'll tag your boat to where you can't undo. Yeah. Like if you launch your boat again, it is gonna break the. And they'll know it's a dirty boat. You know, I'm doing gravity ears over here. That dirty boat over there, just, oh my gosh, I guys got a dirty boat. That's like a horrible walk of shame though, too. Like, I mean, maybe the PO general population wouldn't know, but like as a biologist out there, be like, oh, guys got a dirty boat. Like, oh, for real. Yeah. And you know, I. If, if only we could get that here in Texas. I think that would be Is it working out like that? Like do you, do they think it's working out there? Anecdotally, yes. Okay. It's, it's going leaps and bounds to kind of abate the spread. Yeah. Really. Well, and for Texas, the clean drain dry would. To say, take a power washer and pull your boat outta the lake, open up your bilge and right there though. Yeah. Like as close as you can to the lake. Yeah. So that way it doesn't, doesn't go anywhere on, on the boat ramp while you're there to where the water kind of drains out the back, pull your bilge, plug out, go ahead and pull the lower boat, plug out, open your live wells that you kept any mm-hmm. Water in for fishing and just get all the water that you. And then, go take it somewhere. It, like, if you plan on going to another lake, just go hit it up with a power washer. Yeah. All around it, you know, all the, like the bunks and stuff that hold the boat. Mm-hmm. You know, up on the trailer and everything. Just give it a good wash down. But it's not even just both. It's kayaks and ev. Anything else? Yes. Yeah. And that's, you know, you can get kayaks that'll get a little water in'em. Mm-hmm. Now the sit on top kind, I mean, yeah, maybe not so much, but definitely like, if it's gonna stay like kind of moist and you want to go to another lake. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure to, you know, at the end of it, dry it out, you know, wash it out some. That it's not gonna get into, don't go do this Right at your storm drain. Yeah. And then it just drains off Yeah. Into your, you know, sewer. Yeah. Because they'll just start growing there. Yeah. But yeah. You know, kind of go to a location that can handle this kind of stuff and soapy hot water is going to be your best bet. So you just said something that was interesting too about like going into the storm drain. So do you guys though only look at them within the. Like Right. Okay. Because I was gonna ask if you've ever seen one that's been like, like a population that's been grown in like a really weird place and you're just like, that should not. Be here. No. And that luckily, no. Yeah. But also I don't go crawling through sewers. Yeah, right. Like on, I'll let you know if an air guy see any, that would be fun. Oh my gosh. If only knew our field guys. And this like seeing me being like walking in one day and be like, all right, I'm gonna educate you guys on zebra muscles. Their faces would just be like, what are you talking about? But that would actually, I mean, that would be interesting, but yeah. Gosh, too. Actually find one, something like that. Yeah. Ooh, that'd be interesting. Cuz they really don't need sunshine. They just need, yeah. A food source. Have you guys found'em in the Trinity River? Uh, no. Not in the river. Okay. And it's, eh, I. I have to wonder. I mean, it, it's fairly shallow, like through DFW metroplex. It's shallow. It is. And it's fairly sandy as well. Yeah. So they, they just can't hang on. There's sand, there's nothing there. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing really for them to hang onto. I know. They'll hang on to driftwood Hmm. And stuff. She's just drifting down the trinity and just, just little calling. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Cause I imagine, oh God. And then I imagine like they're all like these little sailors on a little boat. They're all down there. They all flip the different little jobs. They're just going down the nasty trinity, which is better, I mean, it's better in parts, but is Kim get pretty gross in other parts of it? Uh, yeah, there's, I mean, there's. Everywhere that say Don't eat the fish. Yeah. That you catch in this river. Yeah. And it is a very good reason not to. Yeah. Rule to follow. Yeah. But, but you guys haven't really been seeing'em in the Trinity because it, I mean, it is, like we said, it is shallow. Yeah. I really think it's a combination of not much to hold onto. Yeah. And then there's just like the UV factor where it's such a churned up moving. Body now. It is fairly turbid. Yeah. So, you know, the foic zone is gonna be pretty much attenuated to, I mean, gosh, I, I couldn't see the Foic zone in the Trinity River being more than four feet. Yeah. If that, if that, I was just gonna say if that, yeah. I mean, at the very far extent. Yeah. All right. Do you have any, you're closing zebra muscles. Do you have a zebra muscle? I wish you did. Oh man, I, okay. So I guess the closest thing we've got to, we have children listening to this, Jeff, the closest thing I could say that we've had to a zebra muscle joke is getting stickers made of, okay. Oh, I'm so excited of a, literally like a zebra muscle. Uh, The invasive species one. Yeah. With like arms coming out that are just flexing, like flexing, you know, Arnold Schwartzenegger style. Yeah. And getting stickers like that and kind of putting'em out with our, you know, scientific stuff and putting this little flexing muscle among all the scientific data. It's, it's, But I'd say that's about as close as we can come to that bunch of scientists we're either really funny or have nothing. Yeah. Like, you know, it's either ridiculous level or just absolutely nothing. There is no in between. There's no middle ground on it for sure. Yeah. So what are your last parting words and for our, if they had to walk away from this episode remembering one thing about zebra muscles, what would it be? Oh gosh. I would say that, Think of it like this. They are zebra muscles. They have feelings too, you know, so you can get in, they have little boats. You can get into the ethical side of this where they didn't ask to be in these waters as well. Yeah. But. They just got brought over here against their tiny little wills. Yeah. They just so, so don't hate'em for being there. Yeah. But acknowledge they shouldn't be there. They're not supposed to be there. Yeah. So give them the stink eye a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. At least. At least a little bit one. Okay. Well, Jeff, thank you for coming on and talking. Everything's zebra muscle. If you guys wanna check us out, reach out to us on Twitter and then on Patreon too and help support us so we can keep bringing guests on. And we will talk to you guys next week. Thank you. Well, not next week because we are gonna be taking our mid-season break, but we will be talking to you again soon and don't worry, as promise, we are gonna continue to have content even during our season break, and you aren't going to wanna miss this. We'll see you all at season eight.