If I Had a Hammer: Animals That Use Tools

In this episode of Wildly Curious (formerly For the Love of Nature), co-hosts Laura Fawks Lapole, Katy Reiss, and special guest Kim dive into the fascinating world of animal tool use. From the crafty crow that can use a stick to grab food, to the ingenious octopus that uses coconut shells for protection, the hosts explore the clever ways animals solve problems with tools. The episode also includes stories about pigs using bark to dig and crocodiles using sticks to lure birds—revealing that humans aren’t the only species that can make and use tools!

Perfect for animal lovers, science enthusiasts, and anyone curious about the surprising intelligence of nature's creatures. Tune in to discover the fascinating ways animals use tools for survival.

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to For the Love of Nature, a podcast where we tell you everything you need to know about nature and probably more than you wanted to know. I'm Laura.
And I'm Katy.
And I'm Kim!
We have Kim.
It's season five, the start of season five. Can you believe, I can't believe it. Okay, so I know we've been doing this for a while, but for almost a year and a half now, by the time this is released, and I'm like, man, so for a year and a half, we pulled off the start of four complete seasons by being, I've been late on every deadline, pushing, pushing, like divorce, like life chaos, traveling, Laura's in school, had a baby.
Now you got the Rona.
And I'm still recording, guys.
Yeah, and just like the chaos that has struck in the last year and a half, but we've still like four seasons done, and now we're starting our fifth. And this one, I know we say at the beginning of every season, but this one, it should be good. We have some really fun surprises planned for this one.
I feel very organized.
We always feel-
More than we've ever had before. We have tension behind every single episode.
She's so positive.
Well, I mean, we have a good solid lineup organized.
We do.
Which makes me feel good.
Yeah, we do. So we really, in the break, we really took a look at the categories that we pick, making sure that we're offering enough of a variety, making sure that we have some sort of rhythm and tempo so that the listeners, so that you guys actually can feel the pacing and the cadence of the show so it feels and flows a little bit more naturally for you guys. So hopefully, that's not the exciting news though, like the exciting stuff we have, I promise.
Like just, it's so exciting. Yeah, hopefully you'll feel the cadence. No, but I would say the biggest news that we have to share is that we are never stopping the podcast again.
Starting now, we record 24-7.
All the time. You're going to come to work with Laura and I, you're going to, no.
But you could.
You really, yeah, really could. But we decided that, you know, looking at the analytics and everything, and we keep going up and up and everything looks great. And we really hit a stride towards the end of each season and then done.
And so why do we need to stop to have seasons? Well, because we get burned out. Like, we put a lot of research and thought into each of these episodes.
And so I, from the get go, was like, we have to have seasons. Just from the other podcasts that I've done, like, we have to have seasons. We have to have a break.
Just because life and you just need time to breathe. And I don't regret that decision. So what we were going to do is in our normal season break, so we're still gonna have seasons, but in those breaks, we are gonna make a Kim sandwich.
And Kim is gonna take over in the breaks and do some, like, mini episodes for us during those breaks. So we're still gonna be, you know, kicking out, um, probably like 20, 30-minute episodes on a topic. So each break is gonna have one topic, and then each episode is going to, like, just explore another aspect of that topic, is how we're thinking of it right now.
It could change down the road, but it's just gonna keep going. We're not gonna stop. So we'll have, like, all of season five will go through.
Then Kim's gonna do her spiel on whatever topic, and we'll announce it, like, as we get close to the end of season five. And then we start up season six again. And it's just gonna keep going round and round like that.
So I'm excited for that. I think that's gonna keep the momentum going. Um, because, yeah, we just need to keep that momentum.
And so thank you, Kim.
Yeah, thank you.
I'm so excited. It's gonna be fulfilling a childhood dream because I do have cassette tapes.
See?
Of me recording radio shows with my sister.
So there you go.
It's all coming through to fruition, for sure.
We're just making dreams happen over here. It's fine, guys. It's fine.
But I mean, it really is like gonna be exciting. I mean, like I said, it's that momentum that we want to keep going. We do have, like I said, some pretty good episodes planned for this season.
And as we grow, we need to have more support on Patreon. We need to have these things. But we need that break.
We can't lose that momentum. So just having Kim fill in that break for us is gonna be huge. So we are excited.
So because we have Kim fill in that break, we decided what better way than to start season five than to have Kim on an episode with us again.
Introduce any new listeners to Kim, who is our amazing manager that keeps Katy and I sane and on task.
Most organized, on task.
She is literally, probably the sole reason why this show is still going. Because Laura and I, we just can't, we need somebody. I know for me, I have to have somebody that just keeps me organized and going, my ADHD.
Like I just, I try as I might. It's just not, my brain is just not capable.
Which is still reflected in the lateness of our own deadlines.
That we set for ourselves. Like, we set these deadlines for ourselves, and then we are late. I have every intention of being on time, but life, just life.
Just life.
And the hard thing about these scripts too, though, is like, I mean, with anything that's creative, for me anyway, it's either you're in that zone or you're not. And that's like one of the hardest, the hardest things. I mean, thankfully, once we, you know, take time to start recording, I pop a drink and I am ready to go.
I don't have to be in a creative flow to read the scripts to go through it, but it's just doing all that research and stuff. It takes a lot of time.
It is very time consuming.
All right.
Or at least it should be if it's a good one. And speaking of good one, we are going to start off our season talking about-
With a good one.
With a good one, as we promised you. So today we're going to talk about how there are a lot of different species of animals out there, and a lot of them are intelligent. But today we are talking about specifically animals that use tools.
Not animals that are tools, although that would be an episode too.
There are many. And actually that kind of aligns with one of our future episodes.
It does.
But you'll hear it when we get there. Yeah. So, tool use.
I think I'll start things off with talking about what that would mean. Yeah.
Let the rona start.
You just sound like death.
The commitment on Laura's part right now.
The laugh cough. Very bullshit.
It's a laugh cough, and then like, you know, my stupid bulge disc in my back when I cough too hard, it hurts my back. I was just old and decrepit and say, it's welcome to the third.
Wait, and you're the youngest one here though, right?
Yeah.
Only by a little bit though. I think Laura and I are the same age.
Babies.
Tool use.
Tools. This is from a scientific article titled evidence of tool use in a seabird. And they say that tool use is defined as the exertion of control over a freely manipulable external object, the tool, with the goal of a, altering the physical properties of another object, substance, surface or medium, the target, via a dynamic and mechanical interaction, or two, mediating the flow of information between the tool user and the environment or other organisms in the environment.
Holy crap, that was complicated. Okay, basically, a manipulable object.
A thing that can be used for a thing.
Yeah, a thing that can be used for a thing, a specific thing.
Intentional, intentional.
Yes, yes, absolutely. So, speaking of intentions, I had every intention of covering crocodilians for this episode, because in 2013, there was some research done about crocodiles using tools to lure birds to kill them. They'd put sticks on their heads, brought the birds in, they'd eat the birds.
But apparently, it wasn't a big enough study, and in 2019, they kind of tried it again, and it didn't pan out. So...
Can you imagine, though, if crocs did that?
Like, I'm gonna wear a hat.
They definitely do it, but yeah. There's probably not much intention behind it. Well, I mean, there is.
They're doing it on purpose.
Yeah, they're doing it on purpose. Again, I would... Sometimes, I just really wish we knew what animals were thinking, because what if they were just like, he wants a hat.
Accessorizing.
Yeah, he's not looking to catch a bird. He just thinks he looks cute that day. Yeah, he's just like, this looks cute.
I'll wear these today. And then he's like, this damn bird won't stop landing on my head, and he's just chomping at it to get away. You never know, people.
You never know.
Well, so I had to switch gears five minutes before we started recording this. So instead...
Listen, we're professionals. You can do this.
No, I know. Of all my skills in life, like, winging it is, like, up there.
So, the animal that I'd like to cover today, and actually I was kind of hoping to do these anyway, are pigs. Because, as you all know...
I'm surprised you didn't do that one on the get go.
Well, the surprising thing is that as incredibly intelligent as pigs are, and all the studies about how intelligent they are, tool use has never been attributed to them until recently.
Really? Yeah.
So, the only pig so far that they even know that does it is the Visayan warty pig, which is a species of pig that is endemic to the Visayan islands of the Philippines, and it is the most endangered wild pig species. They live in only 5% of their original range. Oh, dang.
I mean, island animals are doomed, as we talked about in the past. But, you know, the Philippine government and various AZA zoos and things are all working to help these critically endangered pigs. So, Visayan warty pigs, like I said, are from the Philippines.
They're actually not a very big species of pig compared to other ones. They're only about two and a half to three feet tall. But one of the coolest things about them is the amazing mohawk that the boy grows during breeding season.
It gets to be nine inches long.
Only breeding season?
Yes.
I mean, if you're going to attract a mate, I guess a mohawk's the way to go.
During breeding season, a nine inch long one. That's pretty cool. So, apparently, the females find it irresistible.
They've got tusks like other pigs, you know, all that stuff. They're omnivorous like other pigs. Not much makes them stand out other than that mohawk.
But they were observed using tools at a zoo in Paris. So, when it was time for the females to have their offspring, these species of pigs, they build a nest, or really, they dig a pit to have their babies in. So, it's like a nest in the ground.
They don't just dig a three-foot-deep pit and just like plop, like scoot their rear end to the edge. They're not a turtle.
Yeah, not a turtle. So, over the course of three years, they observed them using tools 11 times.
All but one of them, all but one of these times were females, and they were the ones that were digging these pits. So what they did is they would find a piece of bark or a stick and put it in front of their nose and use that to dig the hole. Like a shovel?
Yeah, essentially like a shovel. I mean... With their faces.
so they were like, okay, well what if we throw in more efficient tools? These poor pigs are using bark. What if we throw in a spatula?
The pigs poo-pooed the spatula. They were natural tools only. And they only did it during breeding season.
Interesting. The rest of the time, I guess, maybe there wasn't enough pressure. I was just saying.
They were like, I gotta dig a hole.
Absolutely, it must be perfect.
I need it. I need to dig a hole.
But, according to the article that I was reading about it, it says that they're not sure why the pigs were using the tools because the researchers said it didn't... It said it didn't give them any advantage in digging. So, here's my assumption.
So, it didn't make them dig the hole better. What it did was protect their poor little noses from digging so much. True.
They gotta keep up the appearance.
Maybe not so much of a shovel, but nose armor. You're gonna be digging non-stop all day. Your freaking nose...
So, it didn't help them dig faster or anything?
I mean, not according to this article.
And so, by definition, a tool is a manipulable object for a task, that is the bark or stick used for digging a nest. Therefore, pigs use tools. Not at all surprised.
I'm actually surprised more pigs don't use tools.
That's what I was gonna say. I was like, if anything, I mean, again, though, I think maybe it would just be one of those things where they've been secretly using tools all this time, and we just hide it behind.
They like shuffle it back with their tooth underneath.
They only use their tools in private.
Not in mixed species company.
And I guess, like, I know that pigs can, like, use mirrors to navigate, but I guess that's not a tool because they're not manipulating it.
True.
I feel like that's a tool, but I don't know.
Like, pigs, okay, again, this goes back to the whole vegetarian thing. Listen, don't get me wrong. Like, I love meat.
Where is this going?
You could use a bacon or sausage or, you know.
Well, no, just in general, blanket. Like, I really do like eating meat. However, I can't.
When your meat can use tools.
Yeah. There's like a line there.
And after we took microbiology, that's when I was like, you know what? I just can't eat meat. And I didn't for a long time either because of just the things that you get from pork alone.
Well, like pork in particular, like that's where you get all like the what is the one that makes your brain like swiss cheese? Do you remember which one that is? I'll find it.
Well, it's mad cow disease, which kind of does that. But that's obviously cows.
Pork.
I'm looking at pork, swiss cheese brain.
It's something in it literally makes your brain like, yeah, eat your brain apart. So anyway, so like pork already, one, you have to cook it at like a very high temperature, or like, it's just very finicky, let's just say, it's just very finicky. That alone should make a lot of people not want to eat pigs, but then when you start to look at the intelligence of it, I don't know, that's just, that's hard.
That's, yeah. It's eating guts, just there every bit as smart as a dog.
Yeah. As I say, if anything, I would say most, they're smarter than most dogs. They're at least smarter than labs.
I mean, I love labs, but labs are like just stupidly lovable.
They're dumber than a bucket of hair.
They're just so dumb and lovable. I mean, that's what makes them such great pets, because they are just goofy. But yeah, pigs are just so intelligent and that just makes them so much harder to eat.
Pigs.
Yeah, but I love them.
Shout out to Sam Neal's pig again. We talked about that last season, too. This is...
This pig. All right, well, Kim, did you want to go next?
Speaking of smart animals that we also eat, get ready, y'all. We're going to talk about the octopus. My favorite.
Again, another animal that I cannot believe we haven't already knew that they... I'm not at all surprised that octopi or octopuses use tools.
Right, and I... Listen, I just think scientists... Sorry, scientists, but I think they were just like...
These things can't be smart. Until they were smart. About everything the whole time.
About everything they do. Right.
So, before we begin, a quick shout out to my spouse, Nick, because before we got together, I was pretty apathetic toward octopuses. And, admittedly, they're really freaking cool. I know, I didn't know.
You don't know what you don't know. And I did say octopuses, which is the preferred plural for English speakers and writers. And apparently, it should be something like octopodes, or octopodes?
Because it's Greek? It's not a linguistics podcast. So, I would go down that rabbit hole though.
As I say, you're the expert.
Yeah, you're our expert in that area.
I spent more time what the proper plural was.
With you, I believe that.
So, I mean, general, natural history. You know them, you love them. They're an eight-armed cephalopod, which is a type of invertebrate.
But did you know that cephalopod in Greek means head foot?
Just head foot. I did because I took Latin, but...
Yeah, I didn't.
I mean, it makes sense. Head on feet.
I mean, that makes sense, though. An octopus is a head on feet. Yeah, that makes sense.
It reminded me, as soon as I read that, I was like, oh, I thought of a baby doll head with like eight baby doll feet sticking out.
Oh, it's Toy Story. With the, um, what is it?
Yeah, the Erector set.
The Erector set. What is it called?
Yeah, I think you're right.
Get ready. I have a lot of weird Pixar references in this.
Yes!
Yeah, they have head in the middle, eyes on the top side, and beak on the underside. And their arms are on the bottom are covered in suction cups. Each can move independently, and that's how they touch, smell and taste.
And they're really freaking good at it.
They are.
And as I learned from finding Dory, I told you, they have three hearts. Two pump blood to the gills, and one pumps blood throughout the rest of the body. They have blue blood, that's cool.
They're 90% muscle, which explains how they can fit pretty much anywhere their beak can go.
Which is and also amazing. If their beak can fit, they can fit. Which is nuts.
I love watching them get out of tight spaces or into tight spaces. And I think I never want to go caving. No, thank you.
They range in size from a half an inch to 30 feet and can weigh up to 600 pounds, depending on the species.
That's crazy.
There's like 300 species that we know of, and some of them are very, you know, remote. Not a lot of people know a lot about them. They mostly feed on shrimp, crab and mollusk.
And they're known as masters of camouflage. They can change in color and texture of their bodies to blend in to their surroundings.
Yeah, I remember that.
I remember covering one of them in our mimicry episode.
They're just so cool. They're all around so cool. Again, one of my top tattoo ideas, but we'll see.
They're fun.
They are. They are really cool. They are really cool.
One of my favorite animals.
I could just sit here and spout off octopus facts, mostly because Nick will spout them to me, and they're just ingrained now.
It's that John Oliver episode. He's got a short. Oh, yeah.
All about the documentary.
My octopus teacher. Have you all watched that?
I have the book.
Yeah.
Somewhere.
Keep talking.
I'll go find it. You're going to go find it?
I'm going to go find it.
So I have two examples of how these amazingly smart creatures use tools. And the first is the veined octopus. I describe it as your standard octopus.
When I think of one in my head, that's the one I think about. They live off the coast of Indonesia. And in 2009, researchers published a paper that showed them clearly using coconut husks as tools.
Which, okay, stop for a second.
Yes. Happy.
That is quite possibly the cutest thing I could ever imagine.
Because it's imagining Bonnie Python, like the...
Yeah, they're using it as a musical instrument.
In the ocean.
Yeah, do it.
Along the bottom of the ocean floor.
I like that game where you put an object under something and you're switching people around and it's all those arms. They're messing with this, trolling fish.
So it wasn't the octopus teacher one. This is the soul of an octopus, a surprising exploration into the wonder of consciousness.
Yes, I got that for Nick. He also has ADHD. He's read 35 pages and fallen asleep five times.
Is it good?
Also, likewise, ADHD.
I have so many amazing books. And again, it's not necessarily a boring book. It's just, yeah.
It's for ADHD. Yeah, it's got to be a really page-turner for me to keep involved. But it isn't really cool.
Somewhere in the first 35 pages, I know they talked about an octopus that grabbed onto someone, but that person was a lifelong smoker. And they could taste the nicotine on the skin and let go and would not go anywhere near that person ever again. Because they didn't like the way the person smelled-tasted.
Smell-tasted.
I thought that was really cool.
So how do they eat some coconuts?
So, great question. These researchers, they observed these octopuses stockpiling empty coconut halves and would carry them around with them, sometimes as far as 20 meters, which for us is 65 feet. And it looks real dumb when they do it.
They hold it underneath themselves and kind of stand. They call it stilt walking. And it's actually a very vulnerable way for them to walk.
It can open them up to predation. So like, it's something that they're doing and they're risking their lives momentarily to have these coconut husks.
It's a big risk for some coconuts.
I know, big risk for some coconuts. So what they would do is they would use that armor as like a shell. They either put it on top or they take two and like crawl into it and close themselves up.
Again, yeah, adorably cute.
It's so cute.
That should be my tattoo now.
They're walking like a little person.
Three ocean just like just carrying some coconuts.
They see something scary and then just into it.
If you haven't watched it, you can find it on YouTube. This veined octopus also has the nickname the coconut octopus for this reason. And the researchers that were down there also thought it was absolutely hilarious.
They did not expect the octopus to do this. So this biologist who was diving said, I could tell that the octopus busy manipulating coconut shells was up to something, but I never expected it would pick up the stacked shells and run away. It was extremely comical and I've never laughed so hard under water.
Yeah, because could you imagine? He picks them up like he just stole them. You know what I mean?
Like runs away.
My bubbles.
So I have to go out trying to eat them.
Right, I know. That's all I wanted to do. My second example is the blanket octopus, which apparently can be found in a lot of like tropical and subtropical oceans.
I thought it was like just around Australia. Like Great Barrier Reef, but it's in a lot of places. It gets its name from the like webbing between its tentacles that it can basically unfurl by stretching out its arms.
Looks like a big old blanket. Wonderful time. Something really weird about them is that they are sexually dimorphic.
The males are less than an inch long, and the females can grow up to six feet. Yeah. Like Thumbelina and a basketball player.
Yeah.
And apparently, they didn't find a live male until 2002.
Whoa.
Yeah. So, males don't have size on their side, but they do have another weapon. They're completely immune to the sting of the Portuguese Manowar.
Wow, that's convenient.
And I was like, that sounds terrifying. What the heck is that? Portuguese Manowar, terrifying, highly venomous, looks like an alien made of jellyfish.
Yeah.
But it's actually considered a, tell me if I say this wrong, a siphonophore?
Yes.
Anyway, it's like many highly specialized organisms that work together.
So like a creature cult. Yeah.
Creature cult.
Creature cult.
That's venomous.
And highly venomous.
I think it can kill people.
Oh no, no, no. It does.
And they look so freaking weird. So male octopuses, blanket octopuses specifically, will walk over to the creature cult, that is the Portuguese Manowar, and rip off a tentacle to use as a whip to fend off predators or attack prey. Like underwater Zoro.
Yes, or like Indiana Jones.
Yeah, that's where I was going was Indiana Jones.
This male is an inch big. I cannot.
Like, you'd be like, oh, you're not scary at all. To get, you know.
Right, yeah. Don't patronize me!
And then you get stung by this horribly venomous tentacle.
Yeah, talk about a Napoleon couple.
Yeah, right?
Cause yeah, that's exactly what I picture to them going through the ocean.
trying to whip things. Well, apparently, right?
Females do this too, but as they grow out of it, really is what happens.
They mature.
Right. Boys will be boys. And so these aren't the only instances of octopuses using objects for other purposes, though there is some debate in the scientific community on what is considered octopus tool use.
And my unprofessional opinion is that those scientists are lame, octopuses are cool, and anyone who thinks otherwise can fight me, just not the command of the world.
Yeah, and the octopuses.
Yeah.
No kidding.
There's no picture of this little guy with a whip.
They're so small.
I know, but come on.
I just want to see him with a whip.
I think we know a guy who can create one.
With a tiny Indiana Jones hat on and like a little, like the satchel and everything.
I'm going to message him the second.
It needs to happen.
Please show us. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is this a picture of one?
This might be a picture of one with a whip. But it's double double arming it.
What?
Okay, share your screen.
Share your screen.
Share your screen immediately.
This guy? You see?
Oh my gosh.
I think it's him.
Yeah, no, that armed and dangerous is what I'm saying.
But he's double arming it. He's so small, he's got to use both of his arms.
Poor little guy. Okay, wait, did you say it walks up to the Man of War?
No, that was the Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
But it rips it off?
Like, how does it Yeah, so it like, you know, moses on over and he's like let me give you ten tickles and grabs and just rips it on off.
I imagine he grabs one with one arm and then just karate chops it off.
Just like, cha!
And those suckers are strong.
They're not like ten tickles.
You broker.
It's my calling card.
Because I imagine him going up and tickling him and then like Laura, like Laura's like, cha! Oh, goodness.
I am so glad we have this podcast.
And that nature exists that's like this. It's giving us the material.
Right, yeah, we're just we're just like, we're just finding it for you guys. It's not like we're thinking of this stuff on our own.
We're just relaying the information.
I don't even know where we left off with Kim.
Well, that was it.
So yes, octopuses can definitely use tools. What else can use tools?
Katy? Crows.
Again, not at all surprised.
Not at all surprised.
This was my thing that I sent to Caroline saying, listen, Caroline, I want to do crocodilians unless one of them doesn't choose crows because someone must, I put it in all capitals, must talk about crows.
Same thing with you, I didn't want to do chimps. I didn't want to do the common ones. My first choice was octopuses, but Kim.
So crows it is. So although most birds, in my opinion anyway, are splendidly stupid, crows definitely stand out among the rest, for sure. And ravens.
Yeah, what is it, corvids? So don't get me wrong, most birds are excellent at surviving, but it's kind of like they're book smart with zero general life skills or common sense is how most birds are. They're very, very good at surviving, for the most part.
I would say they have amazing spatial intelligence.
But they're dumb when it comes to...
Or like musical intelligence.
Yeah, just anything else, just not good. Alright, so most people have probably heard about ravens and crows throwing seeds into traffic to crack them open, but there's now even more evidence for more complex tool use. So, so far, and this is why I was kind of pushing you guys because I knew what topic Kim had, at least.
Um, and then for Laura, I wanted you guys to go first because you guys have all used single tool use for one instance, where crows have elaborated and have gone on like a tool on a tool on a tool on a tool, up to four.
Four tools deep.
Four tools deep.
I actually went to a presentation on this once. I went to a, by a, I think she was a graduate, like a graduate thesis.
That's such a good title though.
Four tools deep, a COVID story. A corvid story.
A corvid story. A corvid story.
I mean, Laura's bored dying over there.
I need tools.
So I feel like we've done the background on crows before.
Right?
I feel like we had to have at some point.
I don't think we have.
Yeah, I did corvids and magpies.
Okay, okay.
For the occult.
So some.
It's adjacent.
So I'll just do a super brief overview. So the word crow is a generic name for any of the 34 species of large black birds within the genus Corvus. There are other birds within the Corvus family, which include ravens and rooks.
Crows are found in random spots all around the world and typically range from about 13 inches to 28 inches. So they're considered like medium to larger sized birds. They eat a variety of seeds and insects.
And again, depending on where they live, depends on what they eat. Trash, yeah. You know, healthy seeds and nuts for trash.
Dog food. I think dog food is a big one.
Yeah, I'm any...
I think the crow princess feeds her crows.
Opportunistic, opportunistic. So crows do have a variety of vocals that they can rely on to communicate, and they are fairly well known for them. All right.
So that's about all the natural... I mean, there are 34 different species, so I was not going to go into each of those. All right.
So let's move on to their intelligence because that's really what I want to talk about. All right. So even back in the 18th century, people have recognized and documented a crow's intelligence, which is pretty interesting that even back in the 18th century, 1700s, that they were like, wow, these birds are really smart.
Because back then, we still didn't really know a lot about anything. Like, as far as...
Do we now?
Not really, I feel like. So crows, we do know that they are capable of reasoning, cause and effect, solving multi-step puzzles, and even planning for the future. The cause and effect study gave a crow a tube filled with water, like a U-shaped tube filled with water, with a tree at the bottom of one that was too low to reach, and then the crow figured out that by dropping rocks into the other end of the tube, it could raise the water level on the other side to where they can then reach the tree.
And it chose bigger rocks first.
And it chose bigger rocks, yeah. So it knew, it wasn't like, let me just try this out.
It knew.
It just knew. So yeah, super intelligent. So while scientists say, you know, this cause and effect, like that experiment right there is cause and effect, I mean, if it's like taking something and manipulating it, is that a tool?
I mean... I would think that dropping rocks into something is a tool.
I would say yes.
How is that any different than poking a stick in an anthill?
Right? Well, well, I'm gonna get there, but I agree. All right.
So they say it's cause and effect. I think it is more of a tool. But as far as traditional tool use goes, one crow species in the island of New Caledonia has been observed on multiple occasions using tools to capture prey.
In a controlled lab setting, scientists then observed crows to pick up sticks to reach into insect log holes, which is very similar to the chimpanzees. The crow will select a stick that is skinny enough listen, the jokes that I tried to avoid writing this. So, the crow will pick a stick that is skinny enough to fit in the log the insect is hiding in.
They will strip off all the leaves so the stick won't have anything stopping it from reaching the insect. And after they were observed to be doing this for quite a while, scientists then realized one particular crow in captivity that they were studying. The crow's name was Betty, which, who named her?
Oh, Black Betty. I'm sure that's why they named her Betty.
I'm honestly sure, too.
They noticed that she was either carving or bending a hook into the end of the stick to more easily grab the hiding insect. And she wasn't the only one. She was the first one that was like, Oh, crap, she's bending.
So it's complex. Hey, not only can I use a stick, you know what would be even smarter? A new tool for what you have.
So that's like, I don't know, adapting.
Next level.
It really is. So the major question here is, is tool use evolution-based or learned behavior? So by studying hand-rear crows, it was shown that yes, tool use is actually an inherited trait.
So scientists still believe there is an element to social learning to this as, you know, they pick up tool use quicker if it's in a social setting, or they kind of like developed like a more refined tools for the job. But apparently...
I guess that's how, I mean, I can see that because I mean, I think, I think even...
Like humans are smart.
Like a feral child, you would still be able to figure out a tool.
Yeah, you can still figure out a tool.
It might not be a hammer, you know, it would just be a rock, like...
Exactly, exactly. But apparently all this, you know, smartness isn't enough for crows. So scientists at the Max Planck Institute for Ornithology and the University of Oxford took that same species of crow from the New Caledonian, which is called the New Caledonian crows, by the way.
And they wanted to see if they could make multiple, like, unrelated things and combine them. Okay, so this...
Is this where you get to tool on tool on tool, right? Huh? Is this where it gets tool on tool on tool?
Yes, yes.
Okay, that's what I thought. I think I've seen this video.
Oh, yeah, so there is. And we'll provide the link for this video in the description, because thankfully the University of Oxford did record this whole thing. I mean, most scientists do, but they recorded it and they posted it, because it is fascinating.
All right, also the video is really cute because at various points, you can hear the crow making noises, either like out of excitement or frustration or both, like anticipation. And so it's like vocalizing because it's getting so pumped up. All right, so what did this crow do?
Heal, yeah. I'm excited. All right, I'm excited to be studied.
So the researchers presented eight new Chalcedonian crows with a puzzle box that they had never encountered before. The box contained a small food container behind a door that left a narrow gap along the bottom. So think of like, it's a box with like a gap in the middle of it.
All right, they can see. So that they can see into. All right, initially the scientists left some sufficiently like long enough sticks scattered around and all the birds were like, well, duh, and just pick them up and were able to get the treat.
All right, and so where the treat was, the treat is at the back of the box on kind of like a rail. And so there's like a rail back there with the treat sitting on top of it. And they were like, stick a stick through the gap and slide the treat over to the hole where it popped out of the side of the box.
All right, does that make sense, Kim? OK, because Kim hasn't seen it. So I'm trying to make I was trying to like type this and figure out how to explain it.
All right, so all eight birds did this without any difficulty. So in the next step, then, the scientists left the food deeper inside the box, but provided only short pieces. Too short, absolutely too short to reach the food.
These short pieces could potentially be combined with each other as some were hollow and others could fit into the side of them. In one example, they gave the birds barrels and plungers, essentially, from disassembled syringes. Four of the crows partially inserted one piece into another and used the resulting longer compound pull to reach the food.
At the end of the five-step investigation, these scientists made the task even more difficult by supplying even shorter, combinable parts and found that one particular bird named Mango, which is...
Capeti and Mango was able to make a compound tool out of three and even four parts. So they then... That four-component tool, it's like they had to make the three tool, and then they did the study to make the four tools, so it was just increasingly more.
What is fascinating about this is that this entire study was that the scientists did not assist the crows whatsoever. No training, no assistance, nothing. Yes, they were captive bred and reared, but other than that, like, no help at all from the scientists.
So the crows literally did completely figure out how to do this on their own. One of the researchers from Oxford, Alex Kalsnick, said the results corroborate... what the heck?
That the crows possess highly flexible abilities that allow them to solve novel problems rapidly, but do not show how they do it, as far as, like, brain-wise. It is possible that they used some form of virtual simulation of the problem, as if different potential actions were played in their brains until they figure out a viable solution and they do it.
That's just a huge guess, but...
Yeah, huge guess.
I mean, that's how we do it.
Right, that's how we do it, yeah. Similar processes are being modeled on artificial intelligence and implemented in physical robots as a way to better understand the animals and to discover ways to build machines able to reach autonomous creative solutions to novel problems. Which, listen, if they start creating, like, AI robots after crows, we're all screwed.
Because they are really intelligent. So anyway...
You ever see that one go sledding? I feel like that's a tool of use.
I feel like too.
It's like a shingle, and it goes to the top of the roof and slides down on the shingle and then takes it back to the top and slides down on the shingle. There's no reason it's doing this other than pleasure.
Yeah, then fun. Then it's just fun. So anyway, from this study, and this has been repeated, and there have been aspects of this scene in the wild, it's just like how often does somebody go up there and observe a crow.
Yeah, right moment, right time, and so by being able to observe them in captivity, they've been able to see all these different behaviors, which is just fascinating. So yeah, it isn't just one tool, it's combining a tool on a tool on a tool, four tools deep. And yeah, so that's that.
But I mean, that is, to me, that is fascinating, because imagine, okay, I do think, I think what would be interesting, and maybe I just didn't read enough of the research enough, because again, it was behind a paywall. But I think what would be interesting, they started with giving those crows one long stick, and then did the experiment with giving them shorter pieces. I wonder if you just gave the crows all the shorter pieces first?
You know what I mean? Yeah, what would happen, like, without giving them the idea to make, because I almost feel like, and that's probably why they did it that way, was to be like, here's a long stick, this is what you need to do. Yeah.
If I just give you a bunch of tiny pieces, what would they do? Would they be able to just figure that out? Even if you put a flock of crows in there together.
I don't think I've seen the one where it's them putting tools together. I think the video that I saw was there was multiple tools, but you had to use a tool, they had to use a tool to get the next tool, to get the next tool, so they had a short piece of something, they had to fish out the next tool, which was longer, then they had to use that to get something else. So it was like a multi-step problem-solving process.
Yeah, this one, okay, so this one kind of is, I simplified it for this, for the set of recording. It was a little bit more complex than that, but overall it was just making a longer tool.
But that's really complicated too.
Yeah, but it was like being able, they had to obtain the pieces. Like they had to obtain the pieces and then put them together. Yeah, so it wasn't like it was just like sticks all sitting around.
There were like a little bit, a few other things, because from the news articles that were published about it, versus like if you watch the actual video from Oxford University, there's a huge difference versus, you know, reading the free abstract online is almost also very different. But yeah, crows, I mean, again, we know that they're smart. Um, I mean, because you, yeah, and you see all the time, you know, crows bringing people, you know, treats and presents.
Dude, I want to be a crow princess.
Please, please, Laura, I would donate to the cause.
Well, we're already kind of starting to work, me and my boss, we're not trying to figure out how to like make this happen, because we do have crows around the nature center and they've been coming down every day. I saw a crow, so we've got a pair that are nesting, I know, because they go to the meadow to forage, I see them carry food away. But they also keep coming to the bird bath, and this bird bath is like little and about half an inch deep, okay?
It is not for crows. But it comes anyway to get a drink, and I saw it bring a cracker. Where it found the cracker, I don't know, but it brought a cracker and was dunking it and then ate it and then dunked it and then ate it just to make it soft enough.
I was like, I'm watching a crow dunk right now.
Dunk a cracker?
Yeah, it was really cute.
They are pretty smart. And I know you guys like crows. I like crows, their intelligence, but like an octopus, I'm just like, I want to just give it a hug.
I want to be friends with all the animals we talked about.
Friends, I could manage being a herd of pig.
A herd of pig is a flock of crows and at least just one octopus. You don't need more than that. That's too much commitment, I think, for more than one.
Group of...
Although there are groups, because I remember they built that city off like the Great Barrier Reef, they call it like octopuses. There's like a city of octopuses. They built on trash and bones.
It doesn't say, if you just Google it, all it's saying is like, what's the plural of octopus? It's not telling me like a group of octopus anyway.
They're usually solitary. No, exactly.
There's probably not a name for them.
It's got to be something with like a grouping of tentacles. What word could that be?
It's a tentacles of octopuses.
A tentacles, yes. A tentacles of octopuses.
It's so funny.
That's for a group of ten. Per tentacles of octopuses.
Alright, guys. Well, that is the end of episode one of season five. We're extremely excited.
As we start to get more and more into the season, we'll probably give some sneak peeks. We actually already have given some sneak peeks, hopefully, of some of the episodes that are coming up in previous seasons. So if you're avid listeners, you might have an idea of some of the ideas we have coming up.
But I'm really excited for this season. So thank you guys all, again, as always, for your support. We could not have gotten to season five?
We have not We have been in Texas too long.
Right? Dang! We could not have gotten to season five without all you guys listening to us.
So please go check us out on Patreon or go to Twitter, which is probably our most active social media. And talk to us on there, and let us know if you guys have ideas, because we're always searching for ideas, or if you have an idea of something you want Kim to cover during the season break, because we're never stopping again. never.
So definitely let us know if you have an idea for Kim. We're open to suggestions. And yeah, until then, we will talk to you guys next week.
Talk to you all next week.
Bye.